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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
|  Posted: 30-01-2005 13:43
You know, it's hardly a screaming endorsement for the site when the last update on the main page was October last year - maybe someone with power to change it could, since it's hardly going to encourage anyone to play when it looks like the site isn't updated, has no recent news - not even a 'Happy New Year' message from the site admins... come on, pull your finger out!
     
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Zalagar
pioneer
Joined: Mar 05, 2002
Posts: 288 | Posted: 30-01-2005 19:31
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On 30-01-2005 13:43, Shantigh wrote:
You know, it's hardly a screaming endorsement for the site when the last update on the main page was October last year - maybe someone with power to change it could, since it's hardly going to encourage anyone to play when it looks like the site isn't updated, has no recent news - not even a 'Happy New Year' message from the site admins... come on, pull your finger out!
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I couldn't agree with you more on that one. As anyone who's spent enough time talking with me in the game knows, I have been saddened by the decline of MUD2.com. While I do think WP and the rise of graphical MMORPGs like Everquest are partly to blame, I also feel that wiz neglect is to blame, too. No news updates on the login screen, no events, and even changes in the wiz list are often months late.
Now, I'm afraid we're seeing the same thing happening here. The front page's last update being in October is just one symptom.
No news is not always good news.
MUDs are like gardens. They cannot survive if they are neglected by the people who are supposed to care for them. They also cannot survive if they give the APPEARANCE of being neglected.
I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this, but this needed to be said.
(Sigh. I had to edit this, because I didn't realize that the post just said 'MUD2' when I MEANT MUD2.com's decline).
Laura/Zalagar
[ This Message was edited by: Zalagar on 31-01-2005 06:45 ]
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 30-01-2005 20:11
If it wasn't for the attacks on highlives, you might be forgiven for thinking Hawumph and occasionally Turrican were the only wizards in the game.
As it is, I have it on fairly good authority there's frequently 3-4 in the wizroom. Is vissing so painful?
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 31-01-2005 13:14
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On 30-01-2005 20:11, Halen wrote:
If it wasn't for the attacks on highlives, you might be forgiven for thinking Hawumph and occasionally Turrican were the only wizards in the game.
As it is, I have it on fairly good authority there's frequently 3-4 in the wizroom. Is vissing so painful?
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Apparently it is - maybe their attitudes will get them their way eventually, a game with no players! Wow, wouldn't that be fun! But nevermind, when they do come out to play - they seem content to chase the players away rather than encourage them to stay, maybe it would be better if there were fewer wizs - what good are they doing at any rate?
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Gothik
cabalist
Joined: Aug 21, 2001
Posts: 61
From: London
| Posted: 31-01-2005 14:11
Isnt it a sad fact of mud that, as an incarnation grows the players will eventually wiz and tip the wiz/mortal balance in terms of numbers, resulting in an apparently emptier land?
Perhaps the key is to attract new blood, have know idea how to do that but once new blood is obtained try and keep them!.
If there are 3 or 4 wizzes twiddling their digits in the wizroom why cant one of them vis and add a bit of atmosphere or heaven forbid ask hows it going? or if needed advice to the newer people, or just a bit of conversation. I sadly agree with Zalagar that an untended garden can sometimes lose its charm.
In a way I feel a bit like ...Halen hate to admit that  its not just the number of events or effort put in that may be missing but is more of an issue of wiz visibility, and in my personal view, general clique atmospere and i guess that atmos is the responsibility of both the mortals and the wiz's.
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Cradle
cleric
Joined: Jul 07, 2003
Posts: 236
From: England
| Posted: 31-01-2005 17:44
wizmorts (shiver) make wiz= more wizmorts (shiver)
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 31-01-2005 23:41
Don't get me wrong. Wizmort pks are a necessary and good part of the game. But there needs to be a balance.
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 31-01-2005 23:45
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On 31-01-2005 14:11, Gothik wrote:
Isnt it a sad fact of mud that, as an incarnation grows the players will eventually wiz and tip the wiz/mortal balance in terms of numbers, resulting in an apparently emptier land? |
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That's very true - however, we are all aware of wizmorts and their non-mythical existance. If wizs are capable of playing sets with the intention of wiping out the player base, surely they could readjust and play sets with the intention to help the player base and make the land more active. Plus, if the wizs played helpful resets, older players wouldn't get so p*ssed off continually (because PKing is an issue for those with any concept of how to play a reset), newer players would be more inclined to hang around because older players could take the time to help, instead of playing harried sets on the run. And the atmosphere might be better. It's not rocket science. (Although still apparently beyond some people).
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Perhaps the key is to attract new blood, have know idea how to do that but once new blood is obtained try and keep them!. |
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Other MUDs, of lesser quality attract and keep players - including pay-to-play MUDs, perhaps a look at them and why they are successful and this is dire, is in order?
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*snip* an issue of wiz visibility, and in my personal view, general clique atmospere *snip* |
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The cliquey atmosphere has always been an issue in MUD, just in Wireplay the numbers were there to drown it out, now it is an issue - and it is a problem. The childish, petty games of clique, and gang-style ways of dealing with slight problems are noticeable and it's not easy to deal with - wiz visibility is another issue too - I don't know what their problem is with being vis, and I don't buy pish excuses of they get hassle from mortals, perhaps if they vissed more often, they wouldn't get jumped on - but maybe they enjoy an empty land - it's all I can put it down to since they are in a huge position to help the activity levels of the game, and don't (bar Hawumph).
/rant off.
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Gehenna
Visit My Krypt...
[ This Message was edited by: Shantigh on 31-01-2005 23:46 ]
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 01-02-2005 01:20
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| That's very true - however, we are all aware of wizmorts and their non-mythical existance. If wizs are capable of playing sets with the intention of wiping out the player base, surely they could readjust and play sets with the intention to help the player base and make the land more active. Plus, if the wizs played helpful resets, older players wouldn't get so p*ssed off continually (because PKing is an issue for those with any concept of how to play a reset), newer players would be more inclined to hang around because older players could take the time to help, instead of playing harried sets on the run. And the atmosphere might be better. It's not rocket science. (Although still apparently beyond some people). |
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I really think this is a misunderstanding of both the issue and the current situation.
I'd write more on it, but it's 1.17am and I need to go to bed. More tomorrow.
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 18:20
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On 01-02-2005 01:20, Halen wrote:
I really think this is a misunderstanding of both the issue and the current situation.
I'd write more on it, but it's 1.17am and I need to go to bed. More tomorrow.
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Quite possibly, I wrote that late - so let me know your view on it. Mine is just basically that I feel wizards could be active without playing as PK wizmorts and their activity as nice wizmorts would benefit the game more than their PKing does.
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 01-02-2005 19:52
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On 01-02-2005 18:20, Shantigh wrote:
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On 01-02-2005 01:20, Halen wrote:
I really think this is a misunderstanding of both the issue and the current situation.
I'd write more on it, but it's 1.17am and I need to go to bed. More tomorrow.
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Quite possibly, I wrote that late - so let me know your view on it. Mine is just basically that I feel wizards could be active without playing as PK wizmorts and their activity as nice wizmorts would benefit the game more than their PKing does.
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Ok, here's what it is. Wizards are players too. This meeting CANNOT be regarded and enacted as another mortal whinefest, which always happens when they are allowed free reign in conversations.
People can't simply demand that wizards be "nice". They don't have to play nice, they don't have to be nice people, and they don't even have to like us. They are players, and can play how they like, within the wizard ruleset. If they want to kill, they can, go for it! If they don't want to play nice personas, they don't have to!
But what annoys me about these sort of coversations is people always invest 100% in their paranoias. How do you KNOW wizards aren't playing nice personas? How do you know?! You don't! You don't know that anyone you meet in game, other than a select few, is a mortal at all! Don't assume.
The point with our current wizards is not that they are mostly interested in killing, or not even that they're a bunch of gits (which, I hasten to add, I don't think they are). They don't have to be nice. They just have to be THERE, as in visible. They are members of the community the same as us, participating as their wizard characters builds the mystique of the game, it makes it interesting, and makes people hang around.
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 19:58
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Ok, here's what it is. Wizards are players too. This meeting CANNOT be regarded and enacted as another mortal whinefest, which always happens when they are allowed free reign in conversations.
People can't simply demand that wizards be "nice". They don't have to play nice, they don't have to be nice people, and they don't even have to like us. They are players, and can play how they like, within the wizard ruleset. If they want to kill, they can, go for it! If they don't want to play nice personas, they don't have to!
But what annoys me about these sort of coversations is people always invest 100% in their paranoias. How do you KNOW wizards aren't playing nice personas? How do you know?! You don't! You don't know that anyone you meet in game, other than a select few, is a mortal at all! Don't assume.
The point with our current wizards is not that they are mostly interested in killing, or not even that they're a bunch of gits (which, I hasten to add, I don't think they are). They don't have to be nice. They just have to be THERE, as in visible. They are members of the community the same as us, participating as their wizard characters builds the mystique of the game, it makes it interesting, and makes people hang around.
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I disagree that wizards don't have to be nice, upon making wiz they took on a responsibility to the game and how it runs by accepting the powers of being a wiz - in that respect, they should make more of an effort to be nice towards the players, because they should be the all knowing, sage-like people - they shouldn't simply be invisible hitmen.
And it's true - some wizards do play nice persona, but it's not true that we can't say otherwise, the extreme low level of players means that players do know who is who, and who is a stranger. Yes, they aren't going to be spot on 100% of the time, but there would be a huge noticeable difference if wizards were playing active, nice sets.
But I will agree with your statement 'they don't have to be nice' - of course they don't, no one can force them to be nice. However, they don't help anyone by being nasty, killing-spree obsessed players. And they have a duty, more so than the players, to help the game. At least in my eyes, because they have more powers than your mortal personal. Because they don't means they should accept blame when the game goes down hill and people blame wizs - because part of that blame is deservedly on their shoulders.
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 01-02-2005 20:00
well, I disagree with you. Game management has a duty. Game management = Hawumph and Turrican. Joey, Azrael, Droo, whoever, have no duty other than that laid down by the Good Wiz Guide and their own temperament.
Everyone shares the blame. It's just that we can't hide from it :)
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 20:16
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On 01-02-2005 20:00, Halen wrote:
well, I disagree with you. Game management has a duty. Game management = Hawumph and Turrican. Joey, Azrael, Droo, whoever, have no duty other than that laid down by the Good Wiz Guide and their own temperament.
Everyone shares the blame. It's just that we can't hide from it
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If a player in any game is given a degree of responsibility - they are liable for part of the blame when things go wrong, if they are unable or unwilling to take the blame, then they should not be allowed to have a wizard persona.
ANY game - where a player has access to higher level commands - the admins of that game expect those they entrust with those commands to do things for the benefit of the game, it's the only way it can work, or you end up with a selection of people who have power and no responsibility - and can wreck and ruin your game, and all you will do is smile and go: oh well.
Players on the other hand, have no access to these commands and are rarely in a position of trust in regards to how the game is run. But players are also expected to do things. It's a bad situation to be in where you have people you can't trust to think with the games best interests at heart in a place where they can harm the game - therefore, all of those ''upstairs'' have got responsibility, and therefore, are liable to take blame when things go wrong.
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 01-02-2005 20:25
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| ANY game - where a player has access to higher level commands - the admins of that game expect those they entrust with those commands to do things for the benefit of the game, it's the only way it can work, or you end up with a selection of people who have power and no responsibility - and can wreck and ruin your game, and all you will do is smile and go: oh well. |
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Yes, responsibility. Yes, acting in the interests of the game. But neither of those things includes having to be nice to everyone.
Remember, wizzes aren't selected, they earn it. To get their full powers, they have to prove themselves responsible, and those who don't are dewizzed, as we've seen.
Being a responsible wiz =/= being nice to everyone.
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 20:30
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On 01-02-2005 20:25, Halen wrote:
Yes, responsibility. Yes, acting in the interests of the game. But neither of those things includes having to be nice to everyone.
Remember, wizzes aren't selected, they earn it. To get their full powers, they have to prove themselves responsible, and those who don't are dewizzed, as we've seen.
Being a responsible wiz =/= being nice to everyone.
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Think it could be a case of then those with the ability to earn it, don't necessarily deserve it - and should prove during their wizhood that they do deserve it - I don't feel doing the tasks, beating the wizmorts and getting to wiz is a good indicator - seeing as we don't exactly have the best group of people with power in their hands.
Dewizzing is a rare occurance, and in the case of Joey - despite bad behaviour following his re-wizzing, he's still around. So de-wizzing doesn't really prove much. Yes, second chances, but if the second time round you prove you are as much of a self-pleasurer as the first time round, you should be out.
Being a responsible wiz doesn't mean being nice - you are right, but it does involve certain qualities that the selection we have to put up with lack on frequent occassions.
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Crowley
pioneer
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 421
From: Birmingham
| Posted: 01-02-2005 20:38
Um, just want to say, I know you're feeling under the weather at the moment, but it would be really help the discussion when we have it if we can manage to keep animosities between people to a minimum :) Comments like "our wizzes suck!" and such won't help our cause much! ;-). We want wizzes to be more visible, not get more insular! :)
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*Fiz the necromancess says "I've been advised by everyone in the game to ignore you, Crowley".
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Hawumph
Arch-Wizard
Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 368
From: Somewhere you don't want to go!
| Posted: 01-02-2005 21:48
Just an observation, but if this idea is hijacked and abused to target individuals, I will be the first in line to disagree with that. And for the record, my fodding fods work. Every time. Regardless.
Which is a hint to back off on personal things for this entire discussion. Or it does not happen!
This is supposed to be an open debate to discuss the system, attitudes, what people want, etc. It is NOT a whinge fest, it is NOT a debate on who is nastiest wiz or mortal. It is a DISCUSSION!
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How 'bout them transparent dangling carrots? It's not fair to deny me, the cross-eyed bear that you gave to me. You otter know!!!
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 22:43
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On 01-02-2005 21:48, Hawumph wrote:
Just an observation, but if this idea is hijacked and abused to target individuals, I will be the first in line to disagree with that. And for the record, my fodding fods work. Every time. Regardless.
Which is a hint to back off on personal things for this entire discussion. Or it does not happen!
This is supposed to be an open debate to discuss the system, attitudes, what people want, etc. It is NOT a whinge fest, it is NOT a debate on who is nastiest wiz or mortal. It is a DISCUSSION!
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One issue with this is that for cases to be put forward, the evidence in doing that will often target set individuals - like in my above post, there is no argument that he wasn't out of line, since complaints were made and upheld against him. In that matter, it's not getting all personal, it is however stating the facts from previous occassions - and you have to be willing to allow that, otherwise the whole thing gets pointless. You have to be willing to listen to complaints, without bias, and allow people to state their cases without holding the threat of fod over them - if you are going to do that, why don't we just call an end to the whole nonsense now?
And to discuss the systems and the issues - certain issues will have to be brought up, and while it's easy to remain vague for the most part, when people start asking you to prove it, you will have to deal with names being mentioned. It has to be all or nothing, you have to allow the people in the discussion to be honest and cite problems (which are not personally abusive, mine wasn't, mine simply stated fact) without threatening them for doing so.
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Gehenna
Visit My Krypt...
[ This Message was edited by: Shantigh on 01-02-2005 22:47 ]
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Shantigh
friar
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 84
From: Firkins
| Posted: 01-02-2005 22:45
and... I know I'm blunt and harsh, but I don't think our wizs suck, if I thought that, believe me, I'd just have said it. But however, I do feel their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired at times, and their lack of visible activity leaves a lot to be desired at times. Like I said in a previous post, I don't know what their problem is - but they don't help matters by staying stubbornly invisible, they just incite people even more!
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